Who is Jesus? A Debate with a New Ager

Who is Jesus?

Roy Hershberger

A few years back I spent several late nights in an email debate with someone I'll call John. The debate centered around the question of who is Christ. John believed that Jesus was no different than the rest of us except for the fact that he had opened himself up to spiritual enlightenment through the revelation of his inner self. He thought that Jesus had been sent by the “force” (an impersonal power that moves the universe and all life in it. Just like the “Force” in the movie Star Wars) to communicate this message of “spiritual” enlightenment to the Western world, just as Budda had been sent to the cultures of the East and Yoda to Luke Skywalker. He believed that “Christianity” was a distortion of Christ's message and that his death served no purpose. I agreed with him that many forms of “Christianity” are and have been a distortion of Christ's message, but I totally disagreed that his death served no purpose.
This exchange ultimately reminded me of the exclusivity of Christ's message. The concept that we need a transformation or regeneration of the heart, a supernatural rebirth of our very nature, in order to find God is a unique and radically different idea. All the religions of the world, including John's, teach that our good works are enough.
Below are some segments of what we discussed:

John:
If I were to kill my son as an offering to save your soul would you think I had great love for you. No, you would think I had murdered my son. God did not kill his son for you. God has been trying to get you to stop killing your sons, and saying it is for god.

My Reply:
It's not like that at all. Jesus gave his life willingly because he knew of the joy that was to come when he would have perfect fellowship with us forever as a result.
Say you had a son, but he decided to break off his relationship with you and the rest of the family and ended up killing himself. Would you be willing to let your other son die in order that the entire family, including the son that gave his life, could all be united again as a perfect, whole, and loving family - FOREVER?

John:
So you have to murder someone (christ) to get next to god. If you have to murder some innocent being to get next to God what, would that say about God.

My Reply:
It was not a matter of “have to” it was a matter of want to. Jesus gave his life willingly in order to take our place of rightful death and separation from God. Man has always understood deep down the consequences of rebellion against God. How can we be a part of his perfection in our state? Look around you. What do you see? We have no right to demand fellowship with a whole and perfect God. Every good thing God has given us we have corrupted and distroyed. If he allowed us into heaven as we are what would we do to the place?
There must be a work of redemption to change our very nature before we can expect fellowship with God. Jesus showed us the greatest of all love by his willingness to give his life, and God showed even more by his willingness to send him. It is the greatest act of love ever.
If God is a just God he can not simply let us off the hook for our rebellion. If I tried that with my daughters I would never gain their respect. Would a judge who let every guilty criminal go free be of much use? How can there be respect for the law with no consequences for breaking it. So it is with God. There must be a penalty for our sin. If God pardoned us in spite of our obvious guilt what would that say about his character? “What would that say about God?” He would not be a God worthy of respect.

John:
You say, narrow is the way that leads to this Force when the truth is the way is wide and all will enter in.

My Reply:
Jesus said: “I am the way the truth and the life. No one can come to the father except by me.” This does not necessarily mean that people who are ignorant of Christ can not discover God to some degree. But ultimately, at some point in this life or the next, they must accept this truth in order to discover the full reality of God. When we accept this fact revelation and illumination comes flooding into are outer and inner man. We are once again connected to our Creator on a spiritual level, which is how it was intended. It is the thing the human heart cries out for more than any other. It is the great missing link in the human condition. It's the reason we are always looking for something to satisfy - money, sex, pleasure, power, religion, New Age (old age) mysticism - these things only make us more hungry. To rediscover the reality of the Creator in the very deepest part of our being is the only thing that can fill the void.

John:
...the Force you call God has never lived anywhere but in each of us. We are its resting place. If you are looking for God look inside yourself not out. Connect with this Force there and you can pour it out into this world. No one can show you the way into yourself and no one can lead you to god. To say you can is a lie. There are as many ways to the Force as there are people.

My Reply:
God is certainly much bigger then the modern, narrow, humanistic, churchianity that surrounds us. And you are right, no one can come to God unless his Spirit reveals the reality of Christ to them. It is truly a inner search in many ways, though God is much bigger than a mere inner search. It is through Christ that we find ourselves. We must lose ourselves (in Christ) if we expect to find who God created us to be. It is through the transformation and regeneration of the heart that we really change. You are correct, no one can lead us to God. People can testify of what God has done in their own life and this may help to persuade, but ultimately it is a personal decision of our inner being to accept or reject his Christ (saviour).

I had told him this at one point:
...but I have seen many brought to spiritual life when they discover a real connection with their Creator through Jesus Christ. Believe me, it is a transformation that can not be attributed to mere religion.

He responded this way:
I have been through that and seen many others do the same. A holly Roller church can use ritual to work what they think are miracles, but they are not, in the sense they believe. The same can be done by praying to a rock. It is the belief in power from the out side that makes them abel to do for themselves, Something they, thought, they could not do.

My Reply:
If this is all that you have experienced then you have not experienced the real thing. Many think they find Jesus in such settings, but it is only the hype of religious emotionalism. When you truly encounter Jesus it goes far beyond such things. It is solid, permanent, lasting. It will not fade. You won't have to go have your emotional batteries recharged at some tent revival.
When the apostle Paul was brought down off his high horse he changed radically from the inside out. he was literally transformed into a new man. This transformation (regeneration) immediately effected his behaviour. He changed from one who persecuted and killed the followers of Christ to one who was willing to die himself for the cause of Christ. This is the life changing reality I speak of, not some shallow emotional religious experience.

John:
The story of Abraham is trying to convey the message that it was no longer acceptable to sacrifice your children to god, a lamb would do. People were burning their children alive, on the alter as a sacrifice to God. Jesus said not even the lamb was to be used because salvation was free to all.

My Reply:
Jesus is the final sacrificial Lamb. It seems quite evident that the sacrifice of the lamb was meant as a symbol of the coming Christ. “Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.”

John:
I can not explain it clear enough with words. You must understand yourself because you are the same as all men. If you see yourself clearly, you will see all men as if they were naked in body and mind.

My Reply:
I understand how much in need of Christ I am. There is nothing within me, nothing within any common man, that can amount to a hill of beans in God's site. Without Christ we are nothing. We are the scum of the earth and we show it by our actions everyday. It is through the redeeming blood of Christ that we are made pure and worthy to enter into God's presence.

At one point I was attempting to explain the consequences of sin and how God is concerned about it in our lives because of its destructive force. I used the analogy of why I discipline my children (for their own good). He replied in this way:

John:
I know the little Girl story, A child learns 95% of all it will know in its whole life in the first 6 years of its life. The rest of its life is spent sorting that information. If you gave it a good base your job is done and you only have to give the child a little nudge now and then. If you have to punish the child you did not do a good job at the beginning.
God did a good job in the beginning. We have all the tools to understand life. God has the time to watch and wait until we figure it out. He does not need to punish. God is in all ways and all things the helping hand. He never hurts you or causes you pain. You do that to yourself.

My Reply:
I agree with that to dome degree, though most of what your saying is old outdated psychology that has been disproven. Most psychologists now believe such shaping of our basic character goes on well into our 20s. At any rate I think you are hinting at the idea that we are all born basically good, and that we don't have a fallen nature. As a father I can attest that children are born with a fallen nature. If you leave them to themselves they will become increasingly self centered. They require much loving discipline in their early years in order to learn right from wrong and curb their selfish nature. My 6 year old requires less and less of this discipline all the time, and my 5 year old is getting there as well. But if you want an example of what a lack of discipline at an early age will do just go to the inner city.
Clearly it is we who make the bad choices and we most often bring on our own pain. God uses that pain to teach us. Pain is not necessarily a bad thing. He often allows it, even brings it into our lives because it will cause us to seek him and his truth more diligently. Some of my greatest periods of spiritual growth came in times of great pain. I do not resent God for bringing me through those times. I thank and praise him that he loved me enough to lead me out of myself and into greater freedom and truth.
Yes, God has plenty of time, but we don't.

John:
Its a mind game. I don't mean to be so blunt but you need to know what a mind f..k, game is, to see this. To understand this you must understand, man, and to understand man, you must understand, yourself. That is why knowing yourself is so important to understanding the teaching of christ.

My Reply:
I must lose myself (in Christ) before I can find myself. My heart, my human nature, is desperately wicked, I can not trust it. I can trust God as my loving heavenly Father to guide me into truth through the Holy Spirit. Christ understood the heart of man, and his teaching exposed it outright. That is why the religious leaders hated him so much, because he brought to light the corruption of their hearts. We must face the wickedness of our heart before we can come to Christ and learn of his forgiveness. If like the Pharisees we try to convince ourselves that we are good enough on our own that we have no need of forgiveness than we will reject and crucify Christ as well. We will refuse to listen to his words because they strike down deep where it hurts.

This was his curious but revealing response to my reply exactly as it appeared:
If you want words that hurt to think about try these. Are you Gay? Is your wife By - sexual. Is the love you have for your daughters sexual in anyway. Why do men have sex with men. Why do a lot of girls have sex with their brothers? Why are all Women by sexual? Why is it bad to suck a sexual organ, didn't jesus say it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, it is what comes out?

My Response:
What's the point??? These are moral questions many people struggle with, but the darkness of the heart we all know. Facing that darkness is the most painful of all things. We don't want to deal with the fact that we are basically evil by our very nature. That's why religions that teach that we are all basically good and that everybody is right in their own way are so popular. The exclusive message of Christ that glaringly exposes our evil nature is a stumbling block to most people. And when his followers stand up and say: “Jesus is the only way!” we are scorned for it. Those who follow Jesus Christ have always been persecuted and it will always be that way because we refuse to go along with the great human lie. We do not pat each other on the back and say: We have no need of a saviour, our good works and religion are enough.
     Jesus once asked his disciples: “Who do people say that I am?” They answered different things like John the Baptist, Elijah, one of the prophets, etc. Then he asked them: “Who do you say that I am?” Peter answered: “You are the Christ the Son of the living God.” Then Jesus said: “Blessed are you Peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but My Father who is in heaven.”
     I engaged you in this debate knowing that we might very well go around in circles. The view of Christ that I hold can simply not be made to conform to yours. They are as different as night and day. I don't believe that any words I say will sway you toward my view of who Jesus was. In fact I am convinced that the only one who can reveal this truth to the heart of man is the Holy Spirit. Not that this discussion has been in vain. It was good for both of us in many ways. But ultimately it must be the Spirit of God that reveals these truths to you. I can not persuade you under my own power of reason even though I have presented you with strong rational arguments. The things of the spirit must be perceived in the spirit.
     As I have stated, facing the wickedness of the heart is the most difficult thing for us to do, but this is the first step toward realizing the potential for a transformed heart. And when the heart of man is transformed so will his world.

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